Fascists! Fascists? – Plaid and the charges of extremism

Listen to an outstanding panel debate the historic claim that some of Plaid’s founders flirted with Fascism in the 1920s and 30s

The IWA hosted a fascinating discussion this week on Welsh political history to round off the series of essays we have been running on this site responding to Richard Wyn Jones’ book on ‘Welsh Nationalism and the Accusation of Fascism’.

Former First Minister Rhodri Morgan, Robert Stradling (the leading historian on Wales & the Spanish Civil War), and cultural critic Jasmine Donahaye debated historic claims that Plaid Cymru’s founders flirted with fascism with the book author, Richard Wyn Jones.

The series of essays will be completed by a response from Richard on Click on Wales shortly, but in the meantime you can listen to the discussion on our Audioboom site, or in three parts below

9 thoughts on “Fascists! Fascists? – Plaid and the charges of extremism

  1. Clever bloke Rhodri the way he twisted RWJ’s comment about Saunders Lewis quote that Welsh Nats should stand with the working masses against fascism by misrembering the quote and falsely claiming it invited the masses to stand with plaid. Clouds an important point.

    Compare Donahaye’s scholarship rushing to Aberystwyth to check out Tim Williams claim that there were anti-Semitic cartoons Y Ddraig Gogh. Turns out to be nonsense, no such cartoons, obviously Tim never checked.


  2. Fascinating trial and discussion. When the main witnesses for the prosecution appear to be Dr Tim Williams, the Welsh Mirror and Glasnost UK you can be reasonably confident that all charges will be quashed.

  3. This is a thoroughly hipocritical and bigoted debate.

    Who was not touched by what was termed by Musulini as Fascism in the 1930s in politics?

    The Labour party gave birth to the so called British (union of) Fascist Party and the likes of Aneurin Beven “aggreed with almost everything they stand for!.

    Elements in the monarchy supported Fascism as did the English Aristocracy.

    Winton Churchill wouldn’t have called himself Facist but he too believed that was for the “strong” to rule the “weak” by force through Colonialism, Unionism and Empirialism. His Jews were Indians. This is still the ethics of Unionism, except they’ve replaced the Indians with the Welsh, Irish, Scots and Cornish.

    All through the post war years, until it’s very dying day, the Labour Movement worshiped the Soviet Union. It was the very embodyment of what they called “Internationalism” from Englels. That the Socialist movement should ignore the rights of small nations because they’re “trash”! Don’t tell me the Soviet Union was not Fasccist. It evidently was.

    We all know very well in Wales how corrupt and authoritarian the Labour Party has been and still is. In this respect it is a typical Unionist Party that replaces debate with threats, bullying and out-and-out bribary.

    If Tim Willams wrote something about the Labour party being influenced by Fascism it would make War and Peace look like a pamphlet!

    In Wales the least Facist parties are Plaid and the Greens!

  4. Personally, I have no problem with Plaid Cymru including its history or its current stance as the party if nothing else has always been open and honest what they stand for which in simple terms equates to ‘Independent Wales and Welsh being the first language of Wales.

    What worries me and immensely is the state of Welsh Labour party which has been lead by Welsh speaking politicians right from the outset of the Assembly formation and where Labour’s ideological priorities quickly coincided with those of Plaid Cymru and a position that in my view never had any proper scrutiny by Assembly, by the Labour Party itself or the Welsh electorate?

    We all know that the Chief Architect of new Welsh Labour’s ideology that seems to be drawn upon elements of Europe’s dark past (Elevation of Privileged Classes above all else based on their language and culture) is no other than Rhodri Morgan.

    I do realise that’s it’s a dreadful thing to say or even to imply ‘Can Welsh people trust Welsh speaking politicians outside of Plaid Cymru’ – To me it appears the answer is NO as since Rhodri retired, Carwyn Jones is still pushing forward the same policies and priorities that he inherited from Rhodri and we continue to have a substantial ‘Democracy Deficit’ within the Welsh public domain as in ‘No Debate and only Compliance permitted’!?

    I’m often accused as being anti-Welsh which is far from the truth, but I can’t keep silent upon the fundamental issues of Democracy that are being denied to Welsh people by Welsh politicians with an AGENDA!?

  5. ” Welsh politicians with an AGENDA!?” Probably a clear agenda amongst Welsh politicians would be welcome Jacques.

    The problem is that when you start with the proposition that “Welsh is a dying language” it’s easy to move to “Extinction of anything is bad” and then “Welsh must be saved at all costs” swiftly followed by “any measure designated as a means of saving the language is good”.

    Then you might pass a law that created a body, let’s call it the “Welsh Language Board” with twin responsibilities: Increase Welsh speaking in Wales and generate statistics and research relevant to the Welsh language.

    Anyone might suspect that the second part of the WLB’s remit could be used to support the first.

    Add to this a plethora of pressure groups dedicated to “saving the language” and a whole political party born out of a vision of an all Welsh speaking agrarian Wales. It soon became impossible for any political party to pose even the mildest of questions about the iconic language of Wales without being branded (Horror of horrors!) as English.

    And so we go on. From time to time whole departments of government are given responsibilities for the Language. The Jobs for Welsh speakers are welcome and no one can accuse them of not trying their best to fulfill the Government agenda.

    When any policy is not questioned by the politicians of any party in a country, that country has abandoned democracy.

  6. Any suggestions on how to get Trinity Mirror newspaper group to reinstate the Western Mail comments forum they closed down a couple of years ago.
    It may have contributed absolutely nothing to facilitating discussion and debate in Wales but there is obviously a need to provide an outlet tailored to the type of political and cultural commentator that have since had to look elsewhere to be accommodated.

  7. Any kind of fascism but Language fascism…..Is this what you are saying CapM? Freedom of speech as long as people don’t say something that the Establishment doesn’t want to hear?

    I’m all for it! Oh hang on, it was culture and language Nationalists who got the old WOL forum shut down and the same people who got, J.Jones, Jacques Protic and Howell Morgan banned from the IWA site.

  8. CapM,

    I’m a bit confused with your cryptic note. Are you suggesting that dissent and challenge of lets say the imposition of the Y Fro culture and values upon the Welsh majority should be outside the wider scrutiny and that only people who share these sentiments should be permitted to comment on the IWA pages?

Comments are closed.

Also within Politics and Policy